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Post by joekat46 on Aug 12, 2023 18:23:22 GMT -5
Any explanation? Or just arrogance on their part?
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grizzl
Junior Member
Posts: 21
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Post by grizzl on Aug 12, 2023 18:58:30 GMT -5
Probably repeating myself but no one should need a reason to see the deer and turkey results from all the WMAs and all the counties in the state. The check in system will ask for the WMA or the county of harvest so it's there. Publish it. I wonder if I need to fill out multiple FOIA request or will one do it. Let you know.
Here is the Harvest Numbers going way back....don't know why you'd need a FOIA
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 12, 2023 19:21:57 GMT -5
Those are only for WMAs that have check stations or drop boxes. With the recent deer and turkey mandatory check in system they'll have turkey/deer numbers for ALL the WMAs and individual counties within the state. Without doing a count I know a large number of WMAs are not included in this long standing Harvest Report section on the FWC web site. The last two WMAs we drew and hunted had no accountability and our turkeys were not counted by anyone. This was prior to 2023. In 2023 all turkeys killed anywhere in the state were required to be reported. You're a north Florida guy I think. So for example - Give me the number of turkey killed in the Osceola National Forest this last spring or the number of deer killed there last fall. Legal hunter's will have called in and reported their success for either. They have the numbers of turkey and deer that were reported harvested from any and all WMAs in the state.. Why the secret? They can now include all WMAs in their Harvest Report section. Do it.
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Post by One Man Gang on Aug 12, 2023 19:49:39 GMT -5
Last FOIA i asked for was 2yrs ago..still waiting Lmfao! Son, you of all people are persona non grata for a FOIA request at fwc. |
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 13, 2023 5:21:48 GMT -5
Last FOIA i asked for was 2yrs ago..still waiting Lmfao! Son, you of all people are persona non grata for a FOIA request at fwc. Can we assume that ogbohica is not one of the 68% "satisfied" with FWC that Resource Management reported from their survey? |
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Post by One Man Gang on Aug 13, 2023 6:21:10 GMT -5
Lmfao! Son, you of all people are persona non grata for a FOIA request at fwc. Can we assume that ogbohica is not one of the 68% "satisfied" with FWC that Resource Management reported from their survey? I think we could safely assume that to be true. |
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Post by wildman on Aug 13, 2023 6:41:59 GMT -5
I was told they have been working with the vendor but appears there are issues. This is the same vendor that handles the quotas if that gives any insight...
The mandatory report only provides info from those that harvest something (and actually report it). The phone survey also provides details from those not successful and can provide other details (e.g., hunting effort, satisfaction, % of license holders that hunt, etc.). So there is benefit to conducting both.
While I would like to see the data easily accessible, there is a downside. Everyone will be looking at it and will likely increase the number of preference points needed to draw, increase pressure on the better non-quota WMAs).
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Post by wayvis on Aug 13, 2023 8:59:19 GMT -5
Wildman, this is also what I was told about the vendor issue. This is an issue in my opinion that should have been taken care of by now. We have been reporting data on deer harvesting for 7 or 8 years now, and the data for the telephone survey has been collected much longer. FWC should at the very least have a link where you can download this data. Shouldn't have to call Cory to get this info. Anyway here's some of the executive summary info from the 2023 phone survey:
Responsive Management obtained the database of Florida deer hunters, including
nonresidents, from the FWC, which consisted of any license that allowed deer hunting in the
2022-2023 seasons. (Note that Responsive Management deleted the database from its
database system at the conclusion of the survey; Responsive Management does not maintain
hunter license samples.) Responsive Management obtained 11,256 completed interviews with
license holders eligible to hunt deer, of which 7,108 hunted deer. The analysis of data was
performed using IBM SPSS Statistics as well as proprietary software developed by Responsive
Management.
NUMBER OF HUNTERS, HARVEST, AND TOTAL HUNTER DAYS
In the state of Florida during the 2022-2023 seasons, an estimated 136,355 hunters hunted
deer, up from the 122,312 who hunted deer in the 2021-2022 seasons.
These hunters harvested an estimated 93,485 deer, which is considerably more than the
74,098 harvested in the 2021-2022 seasons. Most of the harvest was in the General Gun
season, in which 44,530 bucks and 17,147 does were harvested (61,677 deer in total).
Deer hunters in Florida spent 2.6 million days hunting deer in Florida in the 2022-2023
seasons.
DEER HUNTER SATISFACTION
As in previous surveys, satisfaction with deer hunting in Florida is much higher than
dissatisfaction, with 56.1% being satisfied compared to 20.5% who are dissatisfied (this
refers to “very satisfied” and “satisfied” being summed; likewise with dissatisfied), although
there was a decline in satisfaction overall.
One thing that caught my eye was that out of the 11,256 interviews of eligible deer hunts only 7,108 actually hunted deer. Another way of saying this is that only 63% of license holders eligible to hunt deer actually deer hunted. From this I would infer that Florida has 37% more deer hunters (186,806) than the 136,355 that hunted deer in this report.
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 13, 2023 9:44:11 GMT -5
I do see the downside with easily accessible information increasing pressure on some quota hunt applications. Just me but if a quota turkey hunt allows over ten per hunt I skip it. I prefer 5 max and both of our last draws in 2017 and 2022 were 5 per hunt but with guest that usually means 10 guys running around. Both worked out. I rather have the info than be treated as fat, dumb and happy. They have the info. Publish it. It always comes up that many ignore the check in requirement. Many shoot out of their trucks with spotlights also. That's a law enforcement problem and shouldn't be a factor involved with posting harvest numbers.
I really want the harvest numbers for this springs turkey hunts that took place on the WMAs we drew and hunted in 2017 and 2022. Neither area has check stations or drop boxes. They aren't included in the Harvest Reports. Their 2023 turkey 🦃 harvest numbers will be one factor in deciding which area we put as our first choice in November during the 🦃 application period. As most have figured out the first choice is the one that counts. Choices two through five are mere typing practice.
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Post by wildman on Aug 13, 2023 10:16:54 GMT -5
I agree they have had time to get it figured out. When speaking with the turkey bio, he said if the vendor couldn't get it done he was going to look for another way, so hopefully it will happen in the near future. Not making an excuse, but government purchasing process is a pain compared to private. Usually have to use the low bidder, can't make significant changes to contract until rebid, etc.
With respect to hunter numbers, anyone with a license that allows them to deer/turkey hunt is considered an eligible deer/turkey hunter. Given this includes disability, military gold, senior, and a myriad of other license types some of them never hunt deer/turkey. The number that actually hunt turkey is even less (around 50% last time I looked for it). The good part, at least for turkey, is that a portion of funds from all those licenses go to turkey management, research, etc. even if they don't hunt.
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Post by bullfrog on Aug 13, 2023 19:59:49 GMT -5
The lack of transparency in reporting harvest numbers under the new reporting scheme was a soap box of mine on the old forum.
I believe they are withholding the data to hide widespread lack of reporting compliance and the implications lack of compliance has on the efficacy and fairness of the antler restrictions and bag limits.
If the honest hunters knew how often their fellow hunters were harvesting what they willed without regard to the restrictions and bag limits, the support for the scheme may collapse.
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 14, 2023 3:26:11 GMT -5
The lack of transparency in reporting harvest numbers under the new reporting scheme was a soap box of mine on the old forum. I believe they are withholding the data to hide widespread lack of reporting compliance and the implications lack of compliance has on the efficacy and fairness of the antler restrictions and bag limits. If the honest hunters knew how often their fellow hunters were harvesting what they willed without regard to the restrictions and bag limits, the support for the scheme may collapse. Sadly this may be true especially for private land turkey. That harvested bird can easily be hidden in the back of a buggy, truck bed or car trunk. IMO actual physical tags (designed for one use) may help a little but being blessed to have limited access to some private land know it's really all the honor system on private land for any game. Entering and leaving 2000 acres through 3 different locked gates I know I could probably poach and cut up a moose with impunity. We will never stop the poacher and like it or not one that doesn't report a harvest is a poacher. Too bad that the same "sportsman" that would never shoot a deer at night with a spotlight thinks not reporting the deer or turkey no big deal. They treat this pesky rule like the 70mph speed limit. This mandatory reporting or tagging may be new to Florida hunters but having lived in both Ohio and Kentucky is not new to me. Both states have had mandatory reporting in place for years. For way too many it is merely an annoyance. Jeez - if I report this buck or turkey I won't be able to go next weekend. Wait and see if the complete numbers are ever published (I'm starting to have my doubts) the public land quota hunts and romp and stomps with check stations will have a chance to be fairly accurate. However the county by county kill numbers that will supposedly include the private land will be much lower than expected. Much lower. |
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Post by wayvis on Aug 14, 2023 13:24:44 GMT -5
So why do you guys want this so-called secret data; when you get it you don't believe it? It sounds like to me the only data that you guys might believe is data that would make the FWC look bad. So how would you calculate a noncompliance rate? Yes, you can compare it to the phone survey, but many don't trust those numbers. So what kind of data collection would work?
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 14, 2023 17:16:43 GMT -5
Getting tougher to be the FWC apologist isn't it? How about them posting the actual numbers they received from their telecheck/computer check in system for all the WMAs and counties in the entire state for both deer and turkey. No more no less. I'm glad I'm not the only one that smelled a rat when the seasons were over and the only Harvest Results revealed were the same old same old from the minimal number of WMAs that have been listed for years. Cover up or total incompetence? Take your pick. A 12 year old with a cell phone could post these results. Has now turned into a laugher.
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Post by wayvis on Aug 14, 2023 17:54:11 GMT -5
Same old BS, you didn't answer my questions.
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 14, 2023 18:03:25 GMT -5
Same old BS, you didn't answer my questions. Post the actual numbers received. No more no less. Nothing easier. Have them send me the numbers I'll post them here. We can let Resource Management phone my 90 year old neighbors to guess at a non compliance rate. The neighbors did see a squirrel 🐿️ on the way to the cardiologist. Will that count? Will they add to the 68% satisfied rate? |
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Post by wayvis on Aug 14, 2023 21:11:20 GMT -5
In other words, you can't answer my questions. By the way the satisfied rate for last year was 56%. If you read a few post back you would have known this.  |
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 15, 2023 5:32:36 GMT -5
In other words, you can't answer my questions. By the way the satisfied rate for last year was 56%. If you read a few post back you would have known this. You can't figure a non-compliance rate. Certainly not with a phone survey. That will be a guess and is really IRRELEVANT. Post the numbers they received from all of Florida's 67 counties and any WMA that allowed turkey or deer hunting. Resource Management seem to be the ultimate guessers. They can guess at the non-compliance rate and back it up with a fancy chart from a super computer. Very easy to post something in a chart form such as: Hardee County had 341 turkey kills reported. Desoto County had 401 turkey kills reported. The Walk in Water WMA had 6 kills reported during their quota hunt. The Orange Hammock WMA had 4 turkey kills reported during their four quota hunts. Baker County had 14 deer reported during their deer seasons. The Osceola WMA had 101 deer reported during the area's deer seasons. What really is tough about that? There really isn't anything tough about that. They could start the Harvest Results with a disclaimer such as: "With the new check in systems in place we estimate only 71.3% of the eligible turkey and deer are being reported. Please comply with the law and check in all deer and turkey harvested". Let them make up any non-compliance rate they choose. Probably the higher the better for their purposes (adding the .3 will show they are on top of things). IMO the numbers from the quota WMAs will be close. Over the years we have drawn several quota hunts on non check station no drop box WMAs and had a FWC officer near the parking areas almost every time when we returned. Did in 2017 and did in 2022. Talked to both who checked our permits and birds. If you want to chose the carrot or the stick pick the stick to get compliance. It certainly shows the need for actual physical one use tags such as the punch out the date license I carried in WY. Kill the bird/deer. Punch out the date and have it in your possession when returning to your camp or vehicle. In possession of a bird/deer with an unpunched tag you are caught. No excuse. Very simple and cheap. The current Florida system that allows a paper option to be filled out in place of calling in the kill of a deer or turkey is a license to cheat. Claim no phone, no cell service and fill out the form to cover yourself while dragging the deer or carrying the bird while leaving the area. Get back to your truck and drive home into the garage. Throw the paper option form away. Print another one for your next foray. POST THE NUMBERS. Poachers poach. Cheaters cheat. Part of the game. We all know that. POST THE NUMBERS. The longer this drags on the more suspicious it becomes. POST THE NUMBERS. Btw - does anyone other than yourself give a rat's butt what the satisfied rate really is?😜 |
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Post by wildman on Aug 15, 2023 6:15:42 GMT -5
Not so sure the punch tags are "simple and cheap" or as effective as presumed. Would you have to pick them up from a license vendor and/or have them mailed to you? Dang, that's an inconvenience as I can no longer just buy a license and go hunt. Can you print them from the web? Ok, I'll print 20 of them. You need space to record 4 turkeys and 5 deer. Dang, that license is going to be over a foot long.
Not sure the data is as good as some think. Without knowing compliance rate you don't have a clue what the actual harvest is. Big difference between 40% and 70%. Even a bigger issue if compliance rate varies by county or WMA. Other states that went to tele-check found pretty low compliance rates in the beginning, then they increase over time. One could presume harvest was increasing when in fact it wasn't.
Lot's of variables effect harvest, one of which is hunting pressure. 20 turkeys killed on a WMA with 300 hunter days isn't as good as a WMA with 5 turkeys killed with 20 hunter days.
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 15, 2023 6:26:37 GMT -5
You are obsessed. You know the answer to all these supposed questions. Yes punch out tags are easy and cheap. Many states have been using them for decades. They do catch a multitude of cheaters and greatly increase compliance. Who cares if you have to pick them up from a license vendor. Is FWC going to mail 20 of them to you? Will you create 20 false identities? Walmart is a license vendor and requires ID to purchase any license. POST THE NUMBERS. No excuses.
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Post by Crkr 23 on Aug 15, 2023 6:30:03 GMT -5
I can remember having to go to the courthouse or a licensing agent for hunting and fishing license and somehow survived it, probably could do the same for a hard tag. God I'm getting old and crotchety.
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Post by wayvis on Aug 15, 2023 8:45:43 GMT -5
Joekat, I can see your really hung-up on these numbers. As I said before I agree that these numbers should be posted, but bitching on here is not going to get it done. I have the deer numbers, but not the turkey. If you want the turkey numbers call or email the turkey management section. Its not as easy as you think to post these numbers for because they are in a spreadsheet file, many pages. As far as WMA numbers being fairly accurate don't count on it, from what I've seen in the deer numbers, they are not. If you want deer numbers for a few WMAs I can post that. |
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 15, 2023 9:55:38 GMT -5
I really only care about the turkey. My State Representative's office is close by ( Rep James Buchanan). I'll just stop in and see if he can get all the numbers. Elected officials usually cringe at the words "cover up" that this obviously is. Will just e mail my State Senator also (Sen Joe Gruters). They'll know who is on the budget committees that control FWC's purse strings. How much does FWC budget for the Resource Management's contract? Bet I can find out. Bet we'll all be surprised. POST THE NUMBERS. All of them.
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Post by wayvis on Aug 15, 2023 13:36:34 GMT -5
Hope you get the answers you want. To get them posted on the FWC site going to you Reps is probably your best bet.
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Post by One Man Gang on Aug 15, 2023 13:48:41 GMT -5
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Post by wildman on Aug 15, 2023 17:28:19 GMT -5
As I said before, I totally agree the numbers need to be posted to the web. Just trying to provide a different perspective. Joekat, if I'm "obsessed" with 3 previous posts, what does that make you?
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 16, 2023 5:00:04 GMT -5
As I said before, I totally agree the numbers need to be posted to the web. Just trying to provide a different perspective. Joekat, if I'm "obsessed" with 3 previous posts, what does that make you? Yes I'm totally obsessed with this issue and will continue to be so until EVERYONE can see the received results from a full spring's 2023 turkey season on all the WMAs and 67 counties in the State of Florida. Deer results can be a different issue for someone else and deer now have more than a year's worth of unpublished info I believe. It really bugs me to see bureaucrats try to get by with condescending replies to easily resolved issues. Did spit my coffee when I read a reply here that contained something about how tough it would be to post this information because the numbers were on a spread sheet. This is the computer age and the old IBM Selectric typewriter would not have been needed. POST THE NUMBERS. Hiding what are apparently very much lower than expected numbers behind an unknown number of supposed non compliant "sportsman" is total BS and everyone here knows it. POST THE NUMBERS they have received. I'll guess at the irrelevant number that didn't comply and do it much cheaper than Resource Management. POST THE NUMBERS or don't bother with any mandatory reporting systems. Add - for those who have "the ear" of FWC mention that even on this new small forum this topic has over 4700 views. It's not just me that considers this an issue. Wait until I post it on some national turkey forums that draw all the Osceola non-res money. |
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Post by Crkr 23 on Aug 16, 2023 5:59:22 GMT -5
Keep in mind the easier it is to obtain this information means it is easier for the masses to obtain it when it hits world wide web. Just think of how many of them mean ol'nasty Non Resident hunters are going to be applying for the 5 spots of your favorite WMA. Heck even Bella over in Italy has shown an interest in turkey hunting. Maybe we need to be careful of what we wish for.
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 16, 2023 10:28:54 GMT -5
I won't be that selfish. I use other states posted data when I hunt as a non-res. They should have equal access to Florida info. After this fiasco with FWC obviously and intentionally hiding data why would anyone believe much of what they say now anyway? POST THE NUMBERS as received or scrap the system.
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Post by joekat46 on Aug 18, 2023 7:42:11 GMT -5
This thread now has over 4700 views and is the current record holder for views in the hunting categories. Good the interest is there. As of this morning still no actual totals posted for deer or turkey kills on the FWC site for the 102 areas (139 areas on the WMA Finder) not included with their usual 37 in the Harvest Reports. I realize not all these 102 areas will have deer and turkey hunting but many will and their totals remain a secret. The county by county totals also not yet disclosed for either turkey or deer. Coincidently my State Representative is the Chair of the Agriculture, CONSERVATION and Resiliency Committee. I wonder if FWC will explain to him their obvious need to keep these true harvest numbers for both deer and turkey a big secret from the public? We'll see how it goes. I expect this to drag on and on and on. POST THE NUMBERS.
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