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Post by bswiv on Jul 25, 2023 9:50:29 GMT -5
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Post by One Man Gang on Jul 25, 2023 10:05:40 GMT -5
To tell you the truth, I would love to tour your land and listen to you describe the what, where, when, and why of what you do. It just seems like you have a solid grasp of what is needed to yield the biggest and healthiest benefit to the habitat and wildlife. I have a feeling it would be a eye opening education.
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Post by JS84 on Jul 25, 2023 10:07:07 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, what would you say would be a minimum parcel size to consider using prescribed fire? 20? 50? 100ac? I'm sure there are other considerations as well like proximity to other homes, roads, urban areas.
You should start a Youtube channel Ben. Just document what you do day to day and I'm sure there would be interest.
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Post by bullfrog on Jul 25, 2023 10:53:11 GMT -5
I used to think the value of burning was opening the understory up for sunlight. I didn’t comprehend how beneficial wood ash is for the soil of Florida flatwoods until I started gardening on my woods homestead. Its almost impossible to grow crops in the acidic sugar sand without laying down a lot of wood ash. Not only does it raise the pH and provide nutrients directly, it also binds to other added nutrients and keeps them in the soil longer.
For those reasons, I would think any size burn could be beneficial. Even a food-plot sized burn would be of benefit for the sake of making a rich food plot.
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Post by cyclist on Jul 26, 2023 11:38:39 GMT -5
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Post by james14 on Jul 30, 2023 21:07:13 GMT -5
Peter, was that in Lochloosa?
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Post by cyclist on Jul 31, 2023 9:46:42 GMT -5
Peter, was that in Lochloosa? It was at and old professor of mines property on the Sante fe River. Tough burn cause he's on i75 and the smoke tends to sit in the river at night at the i75 bridge. But we got it finished early and all the smokers cleaned up. The st John's river water management district folks are doing great job burning Lochloosa...kudos to them! |
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Post by Crkr 23 on Jul 31, 2023 10:47:34 GMT -5
Peter, was that in Lochloosa? It was at and old professor of mines property on the Sante fe River. Tough burn cause he's on i75 and the smoke tends to sit in the river at night at the i75 bridge. But we got it finished early and all the smokers cleaned up. The st John's river water management district folks are doing great job burning Lochloosa...kudos to them! Yes, Lochloosa looks 100 times better than adjoining Grove Park. Weyerhaeuser has made Grove Park into a pine desert with all their herbicides. |
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Post by james14 on Sept 4, 2023 19:43:22 GMT -5
It was at and old professor of mines property on the Sante fe River. Tough burn cause he's on i75 and the smoke tends to sit in the river at night at the i75 bridge. But we got it finished early and all the smokers cleaned up. The st John's river water management district folks are doing great job burning Lochloosa...kudos to them! Yes, Lochloosa looks 100 times better than adjoining Grove Park. Weyerhaeuser has made Grove Park into a pine desert with all their herbicides. They seem to be trying to single-handedly keep Round Up in business. Some areas look like they carpet bombed it with glyphosate. |
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Post by Crkr 23 on Sept 5, 2023 5:28:33 GMT -5
If Weyerhaeuser is using Round-Up maybe they need to be included in the Cancer lawsuits against Monsanto.
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Post by wayvis on Sept 5, 2023 7:39:00 GMT -5
I hunt Rayonier land so burning is out of the question. What I do is a lot of mowing and discing. It may not be as good as fire, but it does open things up, so you get new growth which is a lot of what fire accomplishes. Like mentioned above it's a shame how all the pine tree companies have destroyed the habitat for wildlife with all the spaying they do.
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Post by james14 on Sept 5, 2023 20:45:44 GMT -5
I hunt Rayonier land so burning is out of the question. What I do is a lot of mowing and discing. It may not be as good as fire, but it does open things up, so you get new growth which is a lot of what fire accomplishes. Like mentioned above it's a shame how all the pine tree companies have destroyed the habitat for wildlife with all the spaying they do. If I had a timber lease, I'd do all of the mowing I could afford to have done; and do it strategically to achieve several different goals. At one time I thought about trying to lease out some timber land to test a few theories and eventually try to get into consulting and management to some degree. |
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Post by bswiv on Sept 6, 2023 4:02:54 GMT -5
I hunt Rayonier land so burning is out of the question. What I do is a lot of mowing and discing. It may not be as good as fire, but it does open things up, so you get new growth which is a lot of what fire accomplishes. Like mentioned above it's a shame how all the pine tree companies have destroyed the habitat for wildlife with all the spaying they do. Actually......in a more fundamental way......it is not the "pine tree companies" who have done the deed but rather the current restrictions and liabilities associated with burning. For it is far less expensive to burn a stand than it is to spray it with chemicals, and far better environmentally. The proximal cause may appear to be Rayonier or the like but the true cause for the management resides with governmental restrictions and the potential for legal action for smoke or a escape. Fix that and there will be darn little herbicide out there except at planting. |
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Post by cyclist on Sept 6, 2023 7:59:17 GMT -5
I hunt Rayonier land so burning is out of the question. What I do is a lot of mowing and discing. It may not be as good as fire, but it does open things up, so you get new growth which is a lot of what fire accomplishes. Like mentioned above it's a shame how all the pine tree companies have destroyed the habitat for wildlife with all the spaying they do. Actually......in a more fundamental way......it is not the "pine tree companies" who have done the deed but rather the current restrictions and liabilities associated with burning. For it is far less expensive to burn a stand than it is to spray it with chemicals, and far better environmentally. The proximal cause may appear to be Rayonier or the like but the true cause for the management resides with governmental restrictions and the potential for legal action for smoke or a escape. Fix that and there will be darn little herbicide out there except at planting. Florida has more prescribed fire than any other state. We are a right to burn state. An educated experienced burn boss with a proper plan and a modicum of caution is not liable for acts of god...if they adhere to the plan. I always heard the blackened trunks affect paper quality...but I don't really know. What are the government burn restrictions that you mention Ben? |
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Post by Crkr 23 on Sept 6, 2023 8:40:50 GMT -5
Just a WAG, the timber companies probably don't want the burnt bark because one there wouldn't be as much of it and it wouldn't be as merchantable(sp) to homeowners, just a guess.
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Post by swampdog on Sept 6, 2023 8:43:46 GMT -5
Curious - A little different topic on fire science and burning is the appearance the fires got to hot and killed mature (pine and oak) trees. Twenty years ago I rarely saw timber killed by prescribed fire. Today I’m scratching my head and wondering if the certified burners are getting a little careless. Losing mature pines has got to be expensive when looking at harvest value.
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Post by cyclist on Sept 6, 2023 9:40:25 GMT -5
Curious - A little different topic on fire science and burning is the appearance the fires got to hot and killed mature (pine and oak) trees. Twenty years ago I rarely saw timber killed by prescribed fire. Today I’m scratching my head and wondering if the certified burners are getting a little careless. Losing mature pines has got to be expensive when looking at harvest value. I think some managers rush growing season burns in areas that haven't burned in a long time and also don't take the time to protect 150 plus yo long leaf that are crucial seed trees. We had folks from UFs Ordway preserve burn 10 acres of long leaf that hadn't been burned in many many decades. They did great, lost no old pines but was hot enough to take out some oaks and sandpine. Interesting take on the bark and mulch sales. Wouldn't be surprised if thats a factor. |
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Post by wayvis on Sept 6, 2023 10:23:46 GMT -5
I hunt Rayonier land so burning is out of the question. What I do is a lot of mowing and discing. It may not be as good as fire, but it does open things up, so you get new growth which is a lot of what fire accomplishes. Like mentioned above it's a shame how all the pine tree companies have destroyed the habitat for wildlife with all the spaying they do. Actually......in a more fundamental way......it is not the "pine tree companies" who have done the deed but rather the current restrictions and liabilities associated with burning. For it is far less expensive to burn a stand than it is to spray it with chemicals, and far better environmentally. The proximal cause may appear to be Rayonier or the like but the true cause for the management resides with governmental restrictions and the potential for legal action for smoke or a escape. Fix that and there will be darn little herbicide out there except at planting. Its not some much burning of stands that are old enough to burn, its when they harvest and when they prepare an area for new trees. They may spray before they plant and again after the trees get a couple years old. So it destroys most of the browse for the first few years. Then when the pines get 8 to 10 years old you start getting the shading effect, which eliminates most of the browse. These big corporations will be the first to tell you that they are in the Pine tree business not the deer business. Don't take me wrong, I glad they lease their land for hunting, but you would think they could do a better job of habitat management. Don't get me started on how they cut deep rows for planting, this changes the hydrology of the land as well. |
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Post by wildman on Sept 6, 2023 14:37:38 GMT -5
Agree with Cyclist on use of growing season fire in stands that haven't been burned in a while, especially later in the growing season. Combination of higher ambient temperature and convective heat of the fire is more likely to reach the lethal threshold of the pine canopy. Is even more pronounced when burning with little to no wind to disperse the heat. Another factor is burning with a heavy duff layer that doesn't have enough moisture to prevent feeder root damage.
I'm sure burn restrictions and liability play into the reason most timber companies don't burn, but was told by one of the major timber companies in the Big Bend area that it degraded the quality of the wood and thus reduced their profit. It's not as much the charring on the bark as it is charring in the wood. They get top dollar for high quality paper products (e.g., photo paper) and they said if there was any charring the mill would reject it and would have to be sold for a lower quality product. As a note, they can actually back date fire history in a particular stand by looking for charring associated with individual rings that are also used to age trees.
Burning as little as an acre can be beneficial. I do it at the house as the deer love it, and it beats mowing...
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Post by bswiv on Sept 7, 2023 7:26:56 GMT -5
Actually......in a more fundamental way......it is not the "pine tree companies" who have done the deed but rather the current restrictions and liabilities associated with burning. For it is far less expensive to burn a stand than it is to spray it with chemicals, and far better environmentally. The proximal cause may appear to be Rayonier or the like but the true cause for the management resides with governmental restrictions and the potential for legal action for smoke or a escape. Fix that and there will be darn little herbicide out there except at planting. Florida has more prescribed fire than any other state. We are a right to burn state. An educated experienced burn boss with a proper plan and a modicum of caution is not liable for acts of god...if they adhere to the plan. I always heard the blackened trunks affect paper quality...but I don't really know. What are the government burn restrictions that you mention Ben? Pete: The metric that matters is not that we do the most but rather, and focus on state owned and conservation ( ACT, NFLT, etc..... ) lands here. And take Jennings State Forest as a specific. The senior foresters there have characterized things as coming to the point where Jennings will be a "island" surrounded by development such that there will not be a wind direction that does not impact a SSA ( Smoke Sensitive Area ). Result of that is we'll eventually have lands we ALL OWN, lands set aside for conservation and environmental enhancement that can not be burned, thereby thwarting the public purpose for the forest. And more than that. As things advance and the burning becomes more and more difficult and the fuels build and build what we'll be allowing to happen is a mini-California. Unenlightened smoke rules are part of that problem. We could go into the weeds on that a ways. Another part of it is tort reform. Now I know the left goes crazy when tort reform gets mentioned but one of the reasons burn insurance is so darn expensive, even with the gross negligence provision, is that the ambulance chasers have zero disincentive to file suites pertaining to prescribed fire. We need a looser pays provision to the prescribed fire statutes, one that puts the lawyers who file loosing claims on the hook for the costs if their client can not pay. We can go down that rabbit hole a ways.......and it's complicated. There's more.......but you get the idea. And again.....the metric is not that we do the most in Florida but rather whether we are doing right by our environment. And I'll add one more piece of it. Every time we shift a acre of herbicided land to a acre of burned land that is a huge win.....for a pile of reasons. |
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Post by bswiv on Sept 7, 2023 7:30:01 GMT -5
Agree with Cyclist on use of growing season fire in stands that haven't been burned in a while, especially later in the growing season. Combination of higher ambient temperature and convective heat of the fire is more likely to reach the lethal threshold of the pine canopy. Is even more pronounced when burning with little to no wind to disperse the heat. Another factor is burning with a heavy duff layer that doesn't have enough moisture to prevent feeder root damage. I'm sure burn restrictions and liability play into the reason most timber companies don't burn, but was told by one of the major timber companies in the Big Bend area that it degraded the quality of the wood and thus reduced their profit. It's not as much the charring on the bark as it is charring in the wood. They get top dollar for high quality paper products (e.g., photo paper) and they said if there was any charring the mill would reject it and would have to be sold for a lower quality product. As a note, they can actually back date fire history in a particular stand by looking for charring associated with individual rings that are also used to age trees. Burning as little as an acre can be beneficial. I do it at the house as the deer love it, and it beats mowing... The burned bark thing is inconsequential from prescribed burn lands. This is especially true as it is very seldom that a harvest of any sort will be conducted within a year or two of a burn during which time much of the char will have sluffed off by natural processes. |
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Post by bswiv on Sept 7, 2023 7:36:48 GMT -5
Actually......in a more fundamental way......it is not the "pine tree companies" who have done the deed but rather the current restrictions and liabilities associated with burning. For it is far less expensive to burn a stand than it is to spray it with chemicals, and far better environmentally. The proximal cause may appear to be Rayonier or the like but the true cause for the management resides with governmental restrictions and the potential for legal action for smoke or a escape. Fix that and there will be darn little herbicide out there except at planting. Its not some much burning of stands that are old enough to burn, its when they harvest and when they prepare an area for new trees. They may spray before they plant and again after the trees get a couple years old. So it destroys most of the browse for the first few years. Then when the pines get 8 to 10 years old you start getting the shading effect, which eliminates most of the browse. These big corporations will be the first to tell you that they are in the Pine tree business not the deer business. Don't take me wrong, I glad they lease their land for hunting, but you would think they could do a better job of habitat management. Don't get me started on how they cut deep rows for planting, this changes the hydrology of the land as well. The bedding.......yes.......we have a good bit of it on our place left from prior owners. And there are a few places where we've done some. That said, most of what we've been doing for the last 10-12 years is figuring out how to replant without bedding. The herbicide at planting..........it's normally only effective on the herbacious plants for a short time......less than a year....often 6 moths or less. The goal is to let the pines get their tops above the grasses. You still get 10 years or more of some of the absolute best browse in those areas. Of all the things.....this being my OPINION.......it is the herbiciding in leu of burning that is the thing we can and should focus on figuring out how to change. Rules and regulations are the first step. |
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Post by cyclist on Sept 7, 2023 8:23:32 GMT -5
Florida has more prescribed fire than any other state. We are a right to burn state. An educated experienced burn boss with a proper plan and a modicum of caution is not liable for acts of god...if they adhere to the plan. I always heard the blackened trunks affect paper quality...but I don't really know. What are the government burn restrictions that you mention Ben? Pete: The metric that matters is not that we do the most but rather, and focus on state owned and conservation ( ACT, NFLT, etc..... ) lands here. And take Jennings State Forest as a specific. The senior foresters there have characterized things as coming to the point where Jennings will be a "island" surrounded by development such that there will not be a wind direction that does not impact a SSA ( Smoke Sensitive Area ). Result of that is we'll eventually have lands we ALL OWN, lands set aside for conservation and environmental enhancement that can not be burned, thereby thwarting the public purpose for the forest. And more than that. As things advance and the burning becomes more and more difficult and the fuels build and build what we'll be allowing to happen is a mini-California. Unenlightened smoke rules are part of that problem. We could go into the weeds on that a ways. Another part of it is tort reform. Now I know the left goes crazy when tort reform gets mentioned but one of the reasons burn insurance is so darn expensive, even with the gross negligence provision, is that the ambulance chasers have zero disincentive to file suites pertaining to prescribed fire. We need a looser pays provision to the prescribed fire statutes, one that puts the lawyers who file loosing claims on the hook for the costs if their client can not pay. We can go down that rabbit hole a ways.......and it's complicated. There's more.......but you get the idea. And again.....the metric is not that we do the most in Florida but rather whether we are doing right by our environment. And I'll add one more piece of it. Every time we shift a acre of herbicided land to a acre of burned land that is a huge win.....for a pile of reasons. Thank you for the insight Ben. Yes, the urban interface is a huge issue. Makes what you are doing all the more special and important. Keep up the good work! |
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Post by bswiv on Sept 7, 2023 18:47:16 GMT -5
Thank you for the insight Ben. Yes, the urban interface is a huge issue. Makes what you are doing all the more special and important. Keep up the good work! The same situation occurring at Jennings will descend upon the work of many of our land trusts, the ugly part being that the lands so much work was expended in securing and then in managing will go up in.......no.....not smoke......but something far worse. These are the kind of issues and efforts where we're challenged to jettison our attachments to party in service to our attachment to the larger picture. Can you imagine the good done by a Team D legislative leader agreeing to support a NARROW tort reform measure accomplishing this good for our environment? If they could hold the line and keep there from being poison pills tacked on and if some equally visionary Team R would force his folks to stick to the one single item........it'd be both a win for the environment......and our economy which is so dependent on it.......and a demonstration of what can and should be the way legislation is created. But.........well.......I tend to have these hopeful fantasies now and again.......usually I recover to find the pitifully partisan playing their games........sad...... |
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Post by micciman on Sept 7, 2023 19:39:47 GMT -5
We have Florida forest fire fighters go to states every year. to assist.
You know why? Because said stated don't do prescribe burns.
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Post by james14 on Sept 7, 2023 20:58:29 GMT -5
Just a WAG, the timber companies probably don't want the burnt bark because one there wouldn't be as much of it and it wouldn't be as merchantable(sp) to homeowners, just a guess. The only spraying I've seen is right before planting a new stand and a few years before harvest to remove competition. I've also seen them completely bulldoze areas down to the dirt before planting (Plum Creek liked this approach). I can't recall ever seeing a prescribed burn done on timber land unless there was a cooperating agency involved like a WMD. |
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Post by micciman on Sept 7, 2023 22:09:03 GMT -5
I hunt a private 500 ac stand of mixed HW and planted pines. We burn the pines every year that can be and it makes for great turkey hunting and keeps underbrush down from year to year. . The burns are recommended by the FL forestry service.
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